CASAA Call to Action: This will be my final post on the Cloud 9 Vaping verses Five Pawns issues. I covered this issue in great detail in three previous posts titled: Vapors: Five Pawns Speaks on ECF. Part 1, Vapers: Are ejuice vendors properly disclosing the contents of their ejuice? and The Five Pawns Vaping Tragedy Continues. I suggest you read my previous posts on this important issue. In this post I will document the new actions of Five Pawns, lot’s of loose ends, and finally, my hope for the future.
One of the critical cornerstone issues in the Five Pawns story is exactly what Five Pawns said when they were asked if any of their juices CONTAIN Diacetyl and or Acetylpropionyl, also known as acetyl propionyl or 2,3-pentanedione. I have verified the authenticity of the following email exchange. I suggest you read it very carefully and click on the image for a larger version.
The Five Pawns response is a very carefully worded “non answer” and other examples are available on the Internet which you can find in my previous post. Let’s be crystal clear about this vendors response, the operative word is CONTAIN so it is not only a clear “non answer” but more importantly confusing and misleading to the vapor. Fortunately and after a tremendous amount of pressure, we have to some exstent an admission of guilt.
Fitz from Five Pawns said
Unfortunately yes, a small number of people received an inaccurate response to questions specifically relating to the presence of 2,3 butanedione (diacetyl) and / or 2,3 pentanedione (acetyl propionyl). After much investigation and having to scan all outgoing email from a customer service computer, we unknowingly found that responses sent prior to testing were being sent out between 5/27/14 and 10/19/15. Other than these small numbers of responses, we are not aware of any additional responses that occurred over the phone or otherwise. We feel terribly that these people were misinformed and have reached out to each and every one of them directly. Five Pawns has never advertised, marketed, or promoted the absence of these compounds in our liquids. We’ve only stated that we’ve never added diacetyl to our liquids. Unfortunately the diacetyl being detected was naturally occurring. Source
Fitz is certainly a very talented wordsmith but more importantly, I applaud his admission and the corrective action which I will document later in this post. However, the response needs to be carefully studied. First of all, the email exchange posted above is dated 5/19/14 which contradicts his own date range. Second, we still see some obviscation, partial answers, and misleading statements. Later in the thread he contradicts and uses the very old specious technique of blaming someone else when he says: “…AP was added by our flavor providers and this was not disclosed to us prior to us testing for that specific compound. Source. What a disappointment this is. Especially when you consider previous statements like this: “(we) spent many months and resources to try and understand the risk profile of DA and AP in a consumer/vaping setting.” And from a company which touts their desire for perfection and has access to a highly qualified Lab whose owner, Dr. Richard Kanner PHD/Newport Scientific advocates testing all components in a mix before and after it is created. Finally that last statement about “..the diacetyl being detected was naturally occurring”. Horse pucky! Double Horse pucky! For example, ask Capella who’s version 1 of Vanilla Custard was loaded with huge amounts of DA. That’s a flavor used in many mixes! They subsequently released V2 (no DA) in response to large amounts of pressure. And you didn’t test your flavors! REALLY!!! This fact is the most obvious reason why elevated levels of DA and or AP found their way into the mixes.
Corrective action is a good thing
Study these screen captures for email exchanges dated 8/1/15 and 8/3/15.
This a great news and I applaud the actions of 5P. They say: “…Five Pawns is pleased to release the latest test results on our current 10 vapor liquid flavors.” However, 5P sells Castle Long Reserve which is steeped in an oak barrel. They also sell Black Flag Fallen. I am unable to find any test results on their site for these two juices. No test results! They also sell Castle Long which is the non-barrel aged version and does appear in their testing results (last tested 7/15/15). I think this is just an oversight and I would expect 5P to post test results for Castle Long Reserve and Black Flag Fallen sooner rather than later. If they choose not to post test results for these two juices, some members of the Vaping universe may assume that they are “hiding” something. Only time will tell.
Thread dynamics and differences of opinions
- This thread was extremely challenging to make sense of. Some vapers produced huge amounts of noise: personnel attacks, off topic posts, fan boy bloviating, lies, contradicting statements, using obfuscation, shoot the messenger, and talking out of both sides of their mouth. ECF was smart enough to keep the thread open so those small number of “fan boys” who were trying to get the thread locked or consciously attempting to disrupt the conversation could not accomplish their twisted goals. I’m not referring to differences of opinions expressed in a civil and respectful manner. I love to read and learn from others, even if they don’t align with my own views. Also, I’ve clearly stated on this site that my views should never be taken as the final word, 100% “fact”, don’t believe me, and finally read what my opinions are and then continue to perform your own due diligence via other sources to reach your own conclusions.
- Probably at the top of the list of opinions in this thread was that some of “us” were out for blood, throwing Five Pawns under the bus, not interested in answers from Five Pawns since our respective minds were already made up, and desperately wanting revenge and pain inflicted on Five Pawns. To a certain existent I think this is true. Where I find fault is the lack of specifics on who said what and more importantly, the global inditement of every single poster. Sure, some but not all. There were a small number of genuine thoughts which advocated the idea that vapors should perform their own tests on the liquid they purchase. At first blush this might seem like a great idea but the dirty details and best practices need to be considered. A Lab test from a reliable and qualified lab for the levels of DA, AP, NIC, PG, and VG is a very expensive procedure. Roughly around $250 per juice bottle (varies with number of bottles tested). The economics of this don’t make sense. I’m paying $30 per bottle and then I should spend around $250 to test a single juice. I vape 5 different juices times $200 per bottle is a total of $1,000.00! Donald Trump I am not. 🙂 With respect to best practices, I can’t think of any market place transaction where the onus is on the user for testing. Car mileage, product safety, and food labeling are just three of the examples I could mention.
- There are some opinions expressed about research sources and who should a vapor believe. I can’t speak for others but in my case I would never rely on single source or only a Google search. I often pick up the phone and call people. More often than not, you might be surprised what an effective tool this is. Combine this with emails direct to other sources and my passionate desire to present the issue as I see it are my motivating factors for me. Where I again find fault in some aspects with respect to this contrarian view is the lack of specifics with respect to my own views or other vapers opinions. It’s one thing to “shoot the messenger” but an entirely different issue to tell me I am wrong with specifics. Regular readers understand that I have made mistakes and when presented with evidence my response is always the same. Always! “I was wrong and have corrected my initial thoughts. Thank you.”
- There was also some chatter about conflicts of interest inherent in a given opinion. Sometimes referred to as “skin in the game” This is a valid concern. Were the fan boys trying to get free juice from the vendors involved in this dispute? Were the fan boys secretly withholding “relationships” with either Five Pawns or Cloud 9 Vaping. I have no idea but it’s worth considering and I always recommend doing your own research. Yep, I’ve received two emails out of about 14 on my posts on this issue. Both of which accused me of “conflicts”, bribes, or other considerations. It should not be surprising that both of these emails failed to provide specifics and never took the time to read the rest of the site and my crystal clear disclosures. This of course is an old tactic used by many and often referred to as “shoot the messenger” since they lack evidence. Nice try but an epic fail!
- Opinions were expressed with respect to ANTZ. In some cases this is true and in other cases it’s no more or less than specious and self serving bloviating by either fan boys or folks who like to type way to much. Again, it’s about specifics and a global inditement is without merit. This technique is often used in politics, lets try and connect the dots so we implicate she or he with xyz. A flaccid attempt at guilt by association. I’m not buying it. As I previously stated in my first post on this issue: “At a certain level, this Five Pawns Tragedy saddens me a great deal. It’s negative implications for the Vaping industry and the negative impact (hand them red meat) on our respective activism efforts only makes me more skeptical about the survival of vaping, post FDA regulations.” However, using the association or carrying the torch for the ANTZ argument in opposition to another view is where I find fault. Talk specifics to support your opinions. Details PLEASE. Research PLEASE. Connecting the dots doesn’t work for me and many other vendors.
- Some members pointed out that most vendors don’t release test results and their are thousands of them. That Five Pawns was being unfairly singled out. What these members fail to grasp is that the Five Pawns saga is an entirely different set of circumstances. Unique to Five Pawns and no other vendor on planet Earth or Mars. Five Pawns was generally regarded as the “gold standard” in the high end juice field. All the marketing material by Five Pawns touted their absolute perfection, highest quality, the best ingredients, industry leadership, ISO certified production facility, and numerous other statements about how fantastic they are. Although I never had an issue with these statements driven by “Madison Avenue”, when you position yourself as number 1, you had better demonstrate this. Obviously, they failed. When you “mislead” your customers with “non answers”, use obviscation, and “lawyer up” to eliminate valid test results and hide the truth, you tarnish your image. For all of these reasons, you have been and will continue to be severely scrutinized and are the current “poster child” for morally and ethically repugnant behavior.
Elvis left the building
Rob Fitz real name Rob Fitzergerad, CFO/Partner at Five Pawns started this thread with this post:
Hi ECF,
I am one of the owners of Five Pawns and I appreciate the opportunity to have some open dialogue with this community. Source
Then Fitz left the thread after about 25 posts with this statement:
Hi ECF,
I want to thank everybody for taking the time to speak with us in this thread. We have learned a lot from this experience and hopefully you have as well, and we are looking forward to improving and evolving as a company for this great industry. Due to ECF rules we are only allowed to have 2 threads open. We would like to use this opportunity to inform you of some exciting things we have in the works moving forward so we will be starting a new thread soon. If you have any further questions regarding this topic please feel free to PM me. I hope you all have a safe and eventful weekend. Source
The optics of this ill advised move aka leaving the building are disappointing. I certainly don’t expect the CFO/Partner to hang out for an indefinite period of time answering questions. Threads have a “useful life” and eventually turn into an exercise in futility. What I due expect is advance warning on the time he will devote to the thread. Either do it in the first post or provide an interim post which clearly provides advance warning on when he will leave the building. I’m referring to x number of days and then I am concluding my participation. This sudden departure left many of us with unanswered questions. If we assume that all of us are interested in sharing public opinions and answers so we can all work together to improve the industry, you can’t do this with PRIVATE Messages. Finally, this sudden departure without advance warning does not enhance transparency and to a certain extent mitigates previous efforts.
The Cloud 9 story in brief
Their were a small number of bloviaters and fan boys who attempted to inject a “conspiracy theory” with respect to the actions of Cloud 9 Vaping. Here is the thread which Cloud 9 Vaping started. “Lisaf01” is the co-owner. Note her candor, direct answers, no spin, no apples and oranges talk, and no obviscation. Their goal was to tarnish the reputation of Cloud 9 Vaping . They bloviated a lot! Specifically, that Cloud 9 Vaping was specifically targeting Five Pawns with the release of their own testing results and the clear implication that they did this because their is animosity, hate, or discord between the two vendors. Horse pucky! First of all my beloved bloviaters and fan boys, Cloud 9 concurrently released test results for Suprem-e and Mystic. Second, your argument has no financial basis. Removing the Five Pawns juices and returning them to the distributor cost Cloud 9 money. Real money in lost sales and back office time spent revising the web site and paper work. Next, when Five Pawns failed to provide Cloud 9 with their required test results they ran their own tests. They were guided by their moral and ethical compass. Responding to customers questions with real action and disclosure. Trying to protect their customers with full and detailed disclosures. Anticipating the UK’s own draconian laws which go into effect next year and will require extensive testing and disclosure. Next, these tests cost real money! Expensive when you factor in the initial test run of 14 juices which I guestimate at a total cost of around $2100. Were the actions of Cloud 9 perfect and did they error? Sure, it could be argued that they never should have sold Five Pawns juice until they were in possession of trusted testing results that meet their own standards. Yep, I get that BUT their candor and immediate corrective action should be applauded. In their own words: “…but suffice it to say, we will never again place a new liquid on the market without first having test results from a reputable lab in our hands.” Source
The Vegas angle
The ECF thread has some posts about other Five Pawns Authorized Retailers marking down their inventory to around $16 per bottle. I recently confirmed via a “on backround/confidential interview with a few local Vegas B&M’s (Former Authorized Retailers) that they have also marked down their current inventory. It worked like this: the B&M terminated the Five Pawns relationship and then marked down the inventory to near cost. In one case this cost the B&M around $600 in potential gross profit. Terminating the relationship (Authorized Retailer) is required since current Retailers must adhere to the same price as the Five Pawns web site and store which is $27.50 per 30ML.
Conclusions
Five Pawns can recover. It will take some work and I hope they do! Please don’t assume (if you are) that I won’t be silently watching, analyzing, researching, and reaching out to others including 5P privately. For me it’s about “actions” and although I still hope they can recover, given enough time, actions speak louder than words. I guarantee you that I won’t be silent if 5P fails to continue to take corrective actions. I also hope that other ejuice vendors will be guided by this firestorm. If you think for a nano second that you can mislead your customers and follow the actions of Five Pawns, your in for a huge surprise. If your a vapor just like me, ask your ejuice vendors about the contents of their juices and save the emails. Specifically, due any of your juices contain Diketones? Can you please provide testing results for DA and or AP? Can you also provide testing results for the Nicotine, PG, and VG levels in your juices? Change won’t happen overnight. It takes time and will always be an evolving story.
DISCLAIMER/DISCLOSURE: No one asked me to make this post. I do not and will not accept any form of compensation or “in kind” for any post I make. I have no “skin in the game”. I have purchased Gambit and Perpetual Check from Five Pawns. I have also purchased equipment from Cloud 9 Vaping. NONE of these vendors were aware of this post and it’s contents before I published it. That’s the way I roll so deal with it. 🙂
My ECF sig banner for this post. Tell me what you think?
